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okami_huSooo, told the laydee from the prev post that I was very disappointed that I had to wait for this rush job for about a year...
Excuse me but..
First, this sketch has been done last year and yeah, that's how I do sketches, I don't spend over 8hours on a sketch (but still not 5min...). This is the point of a [sketch].
I'm a profesionnal animator, and sorry to disapoint you but that's what I call a sketch and I'll quote wikipedia for further explaination :
"A sketch is a rapidly executed freehand drawing that is not intended as a finished work."
That's obviously not what you so called a "badly scanned rush job"
In case you didn't notice, I added a texture... So I guess this is from what you called it "badly scanned" LMAO
This is the original picture without any editing :
[link]
I did your sketch, I even did it when I was on exams period, so sure I could have been distracted by this, and didn't remember to change the size of the guy or something, that could happen to anyone on earth, but I'm pretty sure I didn't spend just 5min on it...
I won't blame you for asking some retouches, it could happen, some people are not satisfied with their sketches, and they just ask nicely if it's possible to change some parts. Is it that difficult?
Insult someone's work is pretty childish and unprofessional.
That said, I won't pay you back, that's out of question.
I've done your sketch, if you don't like it, that's not my problem, I won't redo something I did one year ago, that's unthinkable.
I can retouch it eventually, like I said.
wow, I can't believe how really rude and unpolite you responded.
*Feliane waited over a year for a commission, she never complained, just asked sometimes how am I doing and stuffs. ~Twin-Earth waited almost 3 years!! And she never complained, she first asked for a pixel commission during the period when I was stopping, I said I would try, but couldn't do it so I proposed her 2 commissions in exchange, I did one, and she had to wait pretty long for the second one (I did it last month, so yeah).
And you? I send you a nice properly done sketch, first you don't respond my first note (DA problem or not, I sent you that stupid note weeks ago) and second, you complain? That's really unbelievable.
It's fine if you don't like it, despite the size fact, you were aware that the guy wouldn't be perfect. Just check my gallery, you'll mostly understand. As you can see, I don't draw men for a particular reason : I'm not at ease with the anatomy.
Anyway, out of generosity towards you, I asked *orpheelin about the anatomy and she says she'll take a look, but she said there are not major anatomy problem despite the arm and the guy over sized head, so except you're a pro-male-anatomy, I wouldn't believe your anatomy skills over hers..
And damn, I repeat myself, but that's a SKETCH, it's not supposed to be perfect anyway. You paid 30$ for a 2 characters commissions, which makes 15$ per character, 15$ is not even 10euros for me, I don't think I would like the spend more time on it for just 10€.
I'll correct it eventually, but I'll prevent you, you'll have to wait now, you're the last thing on my list. People are waiting and THEY didn't even get their sketches done. I won't change my plans just to make you happy about a sketch that costs me more than I actually get in return.
If at least you would have asked nicely, and not with this behavior, I would have it redone, or even better, accept another free commission from you, as I did for *Feliane and ~Twin-Earth.
Hope that would make you think about how you say things to someone who spent more than 5min on a sketch commission.. It's like I critizise a drawing you did 1 or year(s) ago, don't you think it's useless? especially when, in my case, I graduated and found a job in between (which means I evoluated in that domain)
In 5 years of commissions, you're the first one who's acting like this, and that's such a disapointment. I'm not here to serve you, even if you pay me, I'm a human being, you asked me a commission knowing every single facts (ie. men anatomy lack, lack of time, etc..).
And I'll finish by the same line as you, which is more appropriate in my case :
I trusted you and you betrayed my trust.
And she's a "professional animator"...? O_o
Excuse me but..
First, this sketch has been done last year and yeah, that's how I do sketches, I don't spend over 8hours on a sketch (but still not 5min...). This is the point of a [sketch].
I'm a profesionnal animator, and sorry to disapoint you but that's what I call a sketch and I'll quote wikipedia for further explaination :
"A sketch is a rapidly executed freehand drawing that is not intended as a finished work."
That's obviously not what you so called a "badly scanned rush job"
In case you didn't notice, I added a texture... So I guess this is from what you called it "badly scanned" LMAO
This is the original picture without any editing :
[link]
I did your sketch, I even did it when I was on exams period, so sure I could have been distracted by this, and didn't remember to change the size of the guy or something, that could happen to anyone on earth, but I'm pretty sure I didn't spend just 5min on it...
I won't blame you for asking some retouches, it could happen, some people are not satisfied with their sketches, and they just ask nicely if it's possible to change some parts. Is it that difficult?
Insult someone's work is pretty childish and unprofessional.
That said, I won't pay you back, that's out of question.
I've done your sketch, if you don't like it, that's not my problem, I won't redo something I did one year ago, that's unthinkable.
I can retouch it eventually, like I said.
wow, I can't believe how really rude and unpolite you responded.
*Feliane waited over a year for a commission, she never complained, just asked sometimes how am I doing and stuffs. ~Twin-Earth waited almost 3 years!! And she never complained, she first asked for a pixel commission during the period when I was stopping, I said I would try, but couldn't do it so I proposed her 2 commissions in exchange, I did one, and she had to wait pretty long for the second one (I did it last month, so yeah).
And you? I send you a nice properly done sketch, first you don't respond my first note (DA problem or not, I sent you that stupid note weeks ago) and second, you complain? That's really unbelievable.
It's fine if you don't like it, despite the size fact, you were aware that the guy wouldn't be perfect. Just check my gallery, you'll mostly understand. As you can see, I don't draw men for a particular reason : I'm not at ease with the anatomy.
Anyway, out of generosity towards you, I asked *orpheelin about the anatomy and she says she'll take a look, but she said there are not major anatomy problem despite the arm and the guy over sized head, so except you're a pro-male-anatomy, I wouldn't believe your anatomy skills over hers..
And damn, I repeat myself, but that's a SKETCH, it's not supposed to be perfect anyway. You paid 30$ for a 2 characters commissions, which makes 15$ per character, 15$ is not even 10euros for me, I don't think I would like the spend more time on it for just 10€.
I'll correct it eventually, but I'll prevent you, you'll have to wait now, you're the last thing on my list. People are waiting and THEY didn't even get their sketches done. I won't change my plans just to make you happy about a sketch that costs me more than I actually get in return.
If at least you would have asked nicely, and not with this behavior, I would have it redone, or even better, accept another free commission from you, as I did for *Feliane and ~Twin-Earth.
Hope that would make you think about how you say things to someone who spent more than 5min on a sketch commission.. It's like I critizise a drawing you did 1 or year(s) ago, don't you think it's useless? especially when, in my case, I graduated and found a job in between (which means I evoluated in that domain)
In 5 years of commissions, you're the first one who's acting like this, and that's such a disapointment. I'm not here to serve you, even if you pay me, I'm a human being, you asked me a commission knowing every single facts (ie. men anatomy lack, lack of time, etc..).
And I'll finish by the same line as you, which is more appropriate in my case :
I trusted you and you betrayed my trust.
And she's a "professional animator"...? O_o
no subject
Date: 2010-02-01 02:18 pm (UTC)& her French shows "I'll prevent you, you'll have to wait now..."
And how did she _trust_ you? I'm not sure I'm catching everything. Did you promise to smile and nod along, and accept whatever she barfs onto the paper? Or did she ask you to be loyal and not order another commission? :P
Btw. Professional animators can just do the frame work - 25 pictures of the same figure with minute changes - I'd guess that is what she does. Or even if she is working the big work, French animated series are usually dreadful.
no subject
Date: 2010-02-02 07:41 pm (UTC)You're going a little bit too far here, it's what I would call racisme.
no subject
Date: 2010-02-02 10:21 pm (UTC)But no racism was intended. Just general snarking.
no subject
Date: 2010-02-02 11:22 pm (UTC)That's why I don't see why the fact that she made a langage mistake would affect any of this anyway.
About misunderstanding of the word "trust", I don't think she meant it the same way as you thought it should be. But more like that girl got paid for a job, she did the work, and in the end she was probably expecting more than just a "i'm very disapointed", even if it was a negative opinion.
It would have been more suitable to explain the situation (what's wrong with the sketch) and ask for some corrections.
That's why I would have say in such situation.
Well, that's just my opinion about this.
no subject
Date: 2010-02-02 11:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-02-01 02:39 pm (UTC)If she's done this job a year ago, then why did you have to wait a whole year to receive the sketch?
If she does 'quick, rapid sketches', then why ask 30 friggin euros for it, which is more a price I'd have in mind for a coloured piece?
What's up with you betraying her trust?! O_O Because you complained about her work?
...
Arrogant little bitch, isn't she? Probably being 'a professional animator' has gotten to her head. Oo But... I have no words for it. I really don't.
no subject
Date: 2010-02-01 03:51 pm (UTC)You gave her MONEY FFS.
And orpheelin will tell her how bad that male chest is. how uncontrollably bad it is.
also what other people say above me. She did it LAST YEAR? like okay it's the first of february... okay but... oO;;;; whut?
Professional animator title... Yeah I have seen people drawing like a 12 year old with that title. Just because you have a degree doesn't mean you will get a job as an animator anyway. >>;
And a sketch not supposed to be perfect.. true but that thing is not 'not perfect' it's BAD. D:
and why does she say: omg I did your art in my exam period... like.. man you have so much free time. I envy you. Try the exam period of any of us. It's not your fault she has exams. Seriously.
If you ask me, send the
artsketch for an anatomy check to some third party and see what you get.no subject
Date: 2010-02-02 11:35 pm (UTC)lolz~~ depends which job you have, there's a tone of subjobs underneath the so called name "animator". It could be animator, as it could be story boarder, as layouter, as character design, as coloring job, etc... or it could also be assistant, which is a job where you absolutely knows how to be precise and draw well, to correct an animator's work (those looks like a 12YO child would do, but it's actually more than that)
"And a sketch not supposed to be perfect.. true but that thing is not 'not perfect' it's BAD. D:"
Sorry to say that but...Who are you to judge it bad? I don't think it's that bad actually, it has some obvious errors, but definitly not BAD. It would worth some corrections at least, and it could end up quite nicely.
"and why does she say: omg I did your art in my exam period... like.. man you have so much free time. I envy you. Try the exam period of any of us. It's not your fault she has exams. Seriously."
ROFL you just made my day
It seems you still have the time to post a comment here tho', you must have so much free time you also~~
Just so you know, i'm not even here to defend her case or anything, i don't even happen to know her, just through some DA friends (who, by the way, always told me she was quite nice and really understanding when it comes to retouching stuffs, even if it's a CG supposed to be finished, she would do it)
She gave the link to this entry to a friend of mine, who gave me the link right after telling me she was quite shocked by the way okami-hu handled things.
no subject
Date: 2010-02-03 11:17 am (UTC)So all my words are above are true. "I have seen people drawing like a 12 year old with that title." I kid you not.
'Who are you to judge it bad?'
Who who whoooo wait a minuteeee..... I am a human being with the RIGHT to judge freely. God's giving, you know. If I judge a flower to be smellin stinky I judge it to be stinky. AND? My judgement is mine. You don't have to follow it nor you need to even care about it.
Corrections indeed. you don1t think it's bad. I shell not question your opinion, as you have questioned mine.
"It seems you still have the time to post a comment here tho', you must have so much free time you also~~"
Oh my exam period ended already. Thank you for your concern. I did fine. Now I have time.
I just don't see it fit that an artist usues her exam period as an excuse. :/
"Just so you know, i'm not even here to defend her case or anything, i don't even happen to know her, just through some DA friends (who, by the way, always told me she was quite nice and really understanding when it comes to retouching stuffs, even if it's a CG supposed to be finished, she would do it)
She gave the link to this entry to a friend of mine, who gave me the link right after telling me she was quite shocked by the way okami-hu handled things."
Hmm... so she just made it public as well I see I see.
Oh wait do you mean she has her little net /web of followers, ( we call them raging fangirls) who instantly send her copies if someone was not satesfied with her work? Don1t you think this is unfair?
You guys are worse than us. We didn1t send her hatemail, while she is just sending it out to her friends so that her friends will send hatemail toward us? Like what? This is okami's journal. She has the right to state her opinion here. This is HER journal.
Now look here. Okami waited a lot. The artist admitted that the work was done -last year- So technically okami waited until she -sent it-. She payed for it. And as we know money moves things.
Whatever you say, money moves things.
Okami is hars. She is. but there are people like her on this world. She didn't got that money from her parents, no, she works for it, and in exchange she wishes to get proper work.
She did not get it.
the artist needs to understand that there are people like her and let me tell you out in the real life, where okami lives, working... if someone has to wait this long for technically anything... they are fired. Bye-bye-d.
So I ask... if the drawing was done so long ago, what in the earth did she not send it?
My personal opinion is that she herself didn't like it. And she didn't want to send it, but wanted to draw it again.
(as any good artist would)
But didn't like the topic, or just didn't feel like drawing it again, and then she decided oh to hell with it, the customer might just be happy with it. And sent off a work done -last year- with such lateness.
Personally I would ask less money, if she waited for so long, or just not give a not satesfing work out of my hands because I feel it is a shame on me, on my work, and on the quality of my work.
I understand if the artist has a hars life. But the lord is where the mones comes.
By giving out commisions she stated 'Pay me and I'll do what you want'.
That is what life is about.
no subject
Date: 2010-02-03 12:33 pm (UTC)- "So I ask... if the drawing was done so long ago, what in the earth did she not send it?"
Read girl, read.
- "My personal opinion is that she herself didn't like it. And she didn't want to send it, but wanted to draw it again.
(as any good artist would)
But didn't like the topic, or just didn't feel like drawing it again, and then she decided oh to hell with it, the customer might just be happy with it. And sent off a work done -last year- with such lateness."
That's probably true, and I would understand her. But it's not the problem here anyway.
It seems (as I heard from utenasama herself, I especially sent her a note to hear the full story here, coz there's not everything here obviously... just what okami'hu wanted to show, and only that..), she did 2 sketches first, showed them to Okami-hu, who choosed one of those, and AGREED on it... So it's also a bit obvious that okami'hu agreed on that first sketch, said what should be changed and that's all.
After, it seems, utenasama finished the drawing but couldn't scan it until a long long period. So she finally sent it, fine, the customer was not satisfied with it, ok, we got that. So what? It's still a sketch. Afterall, some people would have been just fine with it in the first place, so she showed it first, waited for some reply, positive or negative. She's not the kind of people who would refuse to rework on something, especially when she got paid for it. (and I have 2 friends who commissioned her and were not satisfied with a sketch, she redid it without saying anything.) But that, okami-hu obviously didn't think of any of this. She prefered post this directly on her blog, wait for some sweet comments to popup and show this to utenasama. Really childish if you ask me.
Okami-hu ordered a commission, so she knew what to expect in the first place, there are examples of what is a sketch work from utenasama, and she did know what to expect.. So don't dare say anything like that, that's just nonesense once again. Don't tell me that when you order something you don't check everything in the first place to make sure you would be fine with it... If okami-hu paid her in the first place, she obviously thought it would worth it, if not, sorry to say that but she would be what I call 'dumb' (despite the long wait, which totally could happen to anyone)
- "Oh my exam period ended already. Thank you for your concern. I did fine. Now I have time.
I just don't see it fit that an artist usues her exam period as an excuse. :/"
Like I care.
I had exams a few years ago, I was in an animated school in Belgium (la cambre) and we had to produce a 5min long animated short movie in 3months and a half... Working at least 18hours per day, and I don't think you had even lived that in you whole like, even during your so hard exam period.. ROFL
So don't you dare say it couldn't be an excuse in that case. It could.
no subject
Date: 2010-02-03 02:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-02-03 12:33 pm (UTC)Corrections indeed. you don1t think it's bad. I shell not question your opinion, as you have questioned mine."
People who most of the time say that are not even able to do the half of what has been done here. Admit that it's not what you would call a bad drawing, it is not, it's a fact. The girl anatomy looks perfectly fine and she's quite pretty overall. Despite the anatomy problems of the guy (that's really a detail here), he's quite the same as the original if you ask me.
I didn't question your opinion, I discussed it by giving facts. That's my right, God says so.
- "Look pal, there is a Frnech animator art school in my town in like 5 minute walk. I have been on their 'open day' and they showed works from people who got their diploma there. I saw with my OWN eyes that my cuisn draws better than them.
So all my words are above are true. "I have seen people drawing like a 12 year old with that title." I kid you not."
I'll quote myself in case you didn't catch that line in the first place :
"an animator's work (those looks like a 12YO child would do, but it's actually more than that)"
Like I don't know that, I've been working for 2 years in a studio.
- "By giving out commisions she stated 'Pay me and I'll do what you want'.
That is what life is about."
Agreed, and where did she say she wouldn't do what she wants? Like for instance, correct the sketch? Coz I don't follow you there lolzzzz
"I'll correct it eventually [...]
If at least you would have asked nicely, and not with this behavior, I would have it redone, or even better, accept another free commission from you"
no subject
Date: 2010-02-03 05:10 pm (UTC)Seriously.
Let's not go more into this because you seem to have closed ears.
You are unable to see the act from the other person's perspective.
You don't see the point.
Okami feels betrayed. That is all that happened. And after what happened to her you still want her to be 'ooh plzplz change it plz'?
Just because she was rude? There are people like that. Get used to it. Since she entirely didn't get what she payed for, she clearly is allowed to be angry. 30 Dollar is a robbery.
But let us look at you...
You only made an LJ account to be able to comment here.... oh my!
I wouldn't have cared more either unless YOU had to fall in like a real Cultist-chan! Congrats!
My words are over with this.
I feel no anger against you, nor to the artist, nor to Okami hu.
Goodnight.
no subject
Date: 2010-02-01 05:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-02-01 07:16 pm (UTC)Az egy dolog, ha besértődik a te finomanszólva is őszinte stílsodon, de ez a "I'm not here to serve you, even if you pay me". Basszus, ő egy szolgáltatást nyújt, akkor igenis azért van ott, pláne ha ennyit elkér egy ilyen szarért.
Meg nemtom ez hol profi?O.o
Szerintem az egész levelében az a leggusztustalanabb, hogy másokra hivatkozva próbálja takargatni a saját hülyeségét.
Mondjuk abban meg te vagy a ludas, hogy képes voltál utánanézés nélkül sketchet kérni ennyiért egy vadidegentől.^^"
no subject
Date: 2010-02-02 04:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-02-02 11:45 pm (UTC)I partially agree with your overall correction, minus a few things there and there.
For instance, the guy's left arm was fine the way it was actually, it renforces the care he shows for the girl by letting her the possibility to get closer to him. The perspective is quite correct here. (minus the lack of mussles here lol~~)
The left hand would be better a little bit going on her hips, just making the arm shorter would have been fine.
The lower part of the body is not in the same perspective as the upper part, if you see what I mean.
Nothing to say about the original right hand, it was just fine the way it was.
I don't find the words to explain what I would about the right arm tho', the angle is possible only if the guy was ~1cm farther (?! can i use this word?) -on paper, not reality- and of corse, raise a bit the arm by the same time. I think lol
(his ass is way too big for a man, also, but I'll skip on this lol)
This was my last 2cents of the day!
Hope this wasn't too rude, I just wanted to express my opinion here :))
no subject
Date: 2010-02-04 11:26 pm (UTC)I'll try to answer.
His right arm: I liked the protective pose, that'd actually look sweet, but I think for him to hold her that way, his upper arm should have been raised to encircle her shoulders. Notice how the wrist and the hand holding her shoulder seems parallel to her shoulders (damn, this is hard to say it in words)? It does not look like to me that the lower part of his arm is coming from below, rather from (from my perspective) the background, as if he had his arms around her, only he does not. Maybe it would have been simpler and better to raise his arm to encircle her shoulders than trying to modify the hand. There are a lot of ways to redline, I did a very fast job on this, I admit (literally 10mins) :) I usually try not to modify much because it can take away from the original art as much as add to it in cases, but here it was either modify the hand holding her shoulder or modify upper arm. Raising the arm would have been better, in hindsight.
His left arm: Actually, the proportions of the original lower arm compared to the original head (usually two head long = from elbow to end of fingers lenght), only the original head is either oversized, or the body is not quite scaled (the arms are about right, tho). I choose to say oversized head, because resizing head is easier than redoing the whole body :) My main problem was how there was a nice shoulder for his right arm, but the left was kind of... stunted, maybe? The arm-shoulder wouldn't be so stiff, if he's relaxed, his shoulder/arm would be in a natural position, a bit further back. The awkward hand should be holding her waist, just better than I showed (mine lacks a bit of depth, maybe? mainly went to show a position, but yeah, not really holding her either) :D
... I agree on teh butt xDD I do big butts, I cannot lie xD And also on the perspective, legs are from the side, torso from 3/4 view, although for a picture that cuts off at the thighs, I could let it slide. Not for a full lenght piece.
Daamn, lot of words that can be misunderstood, should have been better if explained through a picture. I'm ESL too (English Second Language), hope it wasn't too confusing, explaining art is damn hard sometimes. Easier to just do.
Don't worry, you weren't rude, just expressing opinions :) I don't claim to be perfect and I don't really do cartoonish/anime style anymore so most of the time my anatomy doesn't mesh with those who do, but I sometimes get the itch to redline anyway D: I guess this might be rude to someone who didn't ask for it, but the commissioner did this for money so... I can justify that I was only trying to help her get better (there is no top in art, you can always get better! :). Being able to do commissions for money isn't a free ticket out of "I can't draw this, don't expect this to be good" problems. That always gets to me. Study that anatomy! :)
no subject
Date: 2010-02-02 07:55 pm (UTC)You're just making a fool of yourself here.
Some facts here are true, this sketch work doesn't really deserve to cost 30$US, but I'll agree with her on the fact that you didn't really showed any tact here and acted a bit like a child.
Why not simply ask for some corrections if the sketch was that old? Afterall, it's only a sketch, it's quite easy to make some corrections, isn't it?
Just by flopping it, I could see a few errors already.
I'm sure she's aware of that and that she wouldn't refuse to get another try on it if you simply asked for one in the first place.
NB :Excuse my english, I'm German and English is not even my second langage..
no subject
Date: 2010-02-03 02:09 pm (UTC)And I can't understand what you're talking about. I merely posted her letter, without even making remarks or anything. I believe I can do with my private correspondence as I see fit.
Problem is, Utenasama probably knew very well that her sketch was not up to par anymore, and instead of just quickly doing another one, with her recent skills, she dutifully dug up the old, crappy thing, and mailed it to me proudly. That is not something a self-respecting artist would do. Moreover, she is using totally absurd excuses to cover up her fail to deliver.
I believe that once you get paid for something, you are to do that job to the very best of your abilities, and in a reasonable timeframe. She could have told me any time that I'll have to wait; I'd have understood that. Or, she could have canceled it; I'd have understood that, too. But no, she chose to not take her duties seriously. How could I take her seriously anymore...?